Blossom Your Awesome Podcast It's More Complicated Than You Think With Elaine Belson

Blossom Your Awesome Podcast It's More Complicated Than You Think With Elaine Belson

Elaine Belson is a clinical social worker and therapist and joins us here for an insightful conversation about Mental Health.

She is the host of the It's More Complicated Than You Think podcast.

She is a passionate mental health advocate and clinician with more than 30 years in the mental health industry.

To learn more about Elaine click here.

To see more of my work check me out here where I cover optimal health and wellness.

Or at the link below -

https://blossomyourawesome.com/mindfulness-1

Where I write and cover mindfulness and other things to help you Blossom Your Awesome.

Or follow me on instagram where I post fairly regularly and ask an inquisitive question or two weekly in hopes of getting you thinking about your life and going deeper with it.

My Instagram - i_go_by_skd

To support my work - my Patreon 

Transcript

Sue Dhillon:
Hi there, today on the show we have got Elaine Belson here with us. I am so honored and delighted to have you here. Welcome to the show.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Thank you very much. It's a delight to be here.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh, I am so excited to get into your story, your expertise. You are a clinical social worker with 30 years of experience and in the military. Give us this backstory in how you got into this line of work and some of your credentials.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right. Well, actually, I started out as a psych bager. I got my BA in psychology, and I was really planning on staying with that. I started out in a graduate program in counseling psychology, but then, and I'll show my age with this, the 1988 presidential campaign came about, and I got really involved in that, and I discovered how much I loved politics. And so I started to have second thoughts, and I... actually left that program and started dabbling in politics for a while. And then I found that I missed the clinical side of things. And that's how I ended up in social work because social work is the only field within mental health that covers both policy and practice. And I'm a junkie with both. I love, I'm passionate about both. So I've actually done quite a few like legislative types of jobs as well. And so I've actually dabbled in other things to children's book writing and I had my own sewing business for a while. And so I went back into clinical social work. I started out at a clinical mental health center, and then shortly after that, I ended up going into my own private practice. But I always, in the back of my mind, felt like I wanted to do more. I wanted to have a bigger impact. I wanted to be part of something bigger than myself. That has always been a passion of mine for a long time. I always used to think, you know, having the house and the white picket fence just wasn't enough for me. And that's how I started to think about the military. It actually happened by accident. So we'd gone to like an air show and, you know, I just started looking into it more. And the more I looked into it, the more intrigued I was by it. And I wanted to be, not just help veterans, but I wanted to be one. And so at the age of 42, I left private practice and joined the army. And if anybody who's been in the military, especially the army, has heard, they probably have heard of Fort Bragg, it's like the last place that you wanna be assigned. Because it has the 82nd Airborne and they are very, what we call, HUA. to give you an idea, they'll tell you, you can't wear a coat. When I actually got deployed later on and they were in control of the post, the airfield, you're not supposed to ever keep your hands in your pockets. That's a no-no in the military. But they didn't want you using gloves unless you were gonna be outdoors for a long period of time. They issued these floppy hats, but we weren't allowed to use them. We could only use field caps so people would get sunburned. You weren't allowed to use coats, even though you were issued them. Everything would be under the uniform to keep yourself warm. I mean, there's just kind of the things that they, the way that they think about. about things. So anyway, there was a lot of issues with domestic violence in a couple of the major posts around the country and Fort Bragg was one of them. And I'm the kind of person that, you know, I want to go where I'm most needed. So that's why I joined the army and that's why I went to Fort Bragg. And so we handled domestic violence cases, primarily, that's what we did, in Garrison. And then I was deployed. And when I went into training, we were told, it's not a question of if or but when, you will be deployed. So I knew that going into it. And so I was assigned to Kandahar Earfield for six months and I did outpatient work working with soldiers first at a hospital. And when I say hospital, I mean like tents and you know, like press board, that's what hospitals made of.

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
And then they were in that time, they were building an outpatient clinic. And so then I moved into there and then I got transferred to Bagram Airfield where I became the executive officer, EXO as they say, for medical command for all of Afghanistan. And what that involves is it's procurement. supplies and logistics. And I knew nothing about any of those, but I discovered that I could excel at it because of my social work skills. Basically my problem solving skills, my interpersonal skills and my persistence and just desire to, my work ethic basically. So I got this really awesome recommendation letter out of it from my commander.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow. Oh my goodness. Okay, so I cannot even imagine that level of responsibility. And then were you doing the like the clinical stuff with soldiers working with them one on one and that capacity at some point as well, right?

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Absolutely, absolutely, the whole time, the whole time.

Sue Dhillon:
Yes.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
So first it was domestic violence. And then I was moved over to, when I was still in Garrison, I moved over to the 82nd Airborne Outpatient Clinic where I worked one-on-one with soldiers. And what I found was that primarily every single soldier that I dealt with had in their background, some sort of... either involvement with the law, some sort of psychotropic medication. Usually there's some sort of history of trauma and some sort of psychological diagnosis. And so... there was rare exception to that. And what would happen is because the whole point was to be deployable, if there was any hesitation whatsoever as to whether or not that person was committed to deploying or was capable of deploying, then the commander would be like, just get them out. Just discharge them. We want to get rid of them because For them, it's all about numbers. They need a certain number. They have a certain number of spaces. And if that person's not going to be deployable, then they want them out so that they can fill that space. Once they deploy, then it's harder. They're not going to be able to replace them. So that's why they would put a lot of pressure on us to make those decisions. Then when I got overseas, It was the opposite. There was this one soldier that I was working with who he had, he was assigned to the EOD, which is basically the, that's explosive ordinance devices. They're the ones that go in and, you know, any time there's a suspect that there's some sort of an explosive device, they have to go in and detect it and try dismantle it, right, to deactivate it. And so there was this one soldier who was on his way back and he had this other soldier die in his arms. And so he was seeing me for the trauma related to that. And what I realized in working with him was that he was really, should never have been there in the first place, that there were some developmental or cognitive disability. And so I ended up not working with him for very long. And I just had him working with my specialist who worked under me because he really wasn't, he really wasn't amenable to therapy. And I told his commander that he needed to be redeployed as we call it, which is, returned home. and he didn't want to accept that. So then he turned to a Air Force captain who has the ability to do psychological testing. And so even though she was a captain at the same rank as I was, she had a PhD, so she could do testing. And so she did testing on him and she came up with the same recommendation. Well, he didn't accept that either. So then he went to a Navy. commander who is basically the same rank or rank of a major in the army. So one rank above and he gave him the same recommendation. So this is the kind of thing that can happen. I remember the first sergeant, that's like he's the one who handles all the enlisted personnel, sort of like the right hand to the commander. He came to me one day in front of this soldier and he said, I'm sorry he's wasting your time. And I was like, wow, you know, he's not wasting my time. He's here because he needs to be here, right? And so I had a meeting with the commander, my commander and this other commander and the first sergeant was there. And I confronted them about this. You know, I told him what the first sergeant said and right in front of me, he said, that's a lie. I never said that. Um, you know, that's just the kind of the, the stuff that, that, you know, I put up with while I was deployed, but, but it was a really rewarding experience. And there's so many, so many great stories that came out of that and listening to soldiers and, and some of what they have been through is just, um, you know, just unimaginable for most of us.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow, I can't imagine. And, you know, there's this aspect of not to compare anybody's trauma to anyone else's, right? But I can't imagine really, I've never even had this conversation while I've thought of it. I've, you know, read up on things and have seen documentaries and whatnot. I was in the news business. So we were kind of very actively covering the war at that time. Um, so there was kind of that side of things, but never the kind of, you know, this component where you hear of like PTSD and soldiers struggling, but that there's so much, right? Like the stress

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Thank you

Sue Dhillon:
of

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
so much.

Sue Dhillon:
just the trauma of war, of losing colleagues, uh, you know, fear, anxiety of discovering explosives, of being away from

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right. Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
family.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Well, you'd be surprised that what is most stressful for most soldiers is two things. It's relationships and finances. So, for example, if something's going on at home and they can't be there to help fix it, that is really stressful for them. And so the two things that would be the most stressful would be finances and if there's some sort of relationship issues going on between, you know, a soldier and something happening at home. In fact, it was interesting because as deployments would, you know, would go on, you know, the more they would go on, the more we would start to see more and more soldiers coming into, you know, to see us. I had a really interesting story. a soldier who was, when I first started to see him, he was really cocky. And he said, I don't want, I'm having trouble sleeping, but I don't want any medication. And so I started asking him about his story and he was telling me how his father had abandoned him when he was about eight months old. And he told me that like when he was about eight, eight, I'm sorry. Yeah. Well, when he was eight years old, I don't know, it was a couple of months old anyway, when he was eight years old, he was visiting his paternal grandparents and his father called and said he wanted to have a relationship with him. And he said, I haven't had a relationship with you all this time, why would I wanna have one with you now? And I said to him, wow, you sound really angry. And he goes, no, I'm not angry, not at all. And so I thought like two or three times and he stopped coming. And then he comes back. I don't know what it was a couple of weeks, months later, and he is a mess. He hasn't been able to sleep. He's finally started taking medication and he starts telling me this story about how his wife just had a baby and he really just wishes he could be home with them. He feels really bad about leaving them. And I'm like, aha. here we go, this is the problem. He's starting to feel like he's doing exactly the same thing to his daughter that his father did to him. And it was like, you know, this light bulb went off in my head as to what was going on, you know, and that's the kind of thing that we do, you know, that's those kinds of insights that help people to resolve their problems, you know, and he never put two and two together that that's what was going on for him. I had another soldier who, this is a very difficult story probably for people to hear, but he was sharing with me when he was in Iraq, this was Afghanistan now that I was talking to him, when he was in Iraq, he was in a tank and tanks are not pliable vehicles, right? They can't turn on a dime. And so they were moving along and there was this car. that suddenly jutted out of the side street and it had a family in it. And there was nothing they could do, but run over this car with this family in it. I mean, and that's the kind of stuff that's gonna stick with you forever.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm. Wow. I can't imagine. And now they're, you know, God, I don't even know how to say this without, again, you know, not a knock on the military or, you know, the armed forces in any way, but it's interesting because I think there's this draw, like you say, a lot of most people that you dealt with, and I would imagine many others had. some sort of childhood trauma or neglect or something because there's this kind of draw and pull I feel for many of camaraderie and a sense of belonging and

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Mm-hmm.

Sue Dhillon:
right, that kind of

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
desire.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Well, the vast majority of Americans grow up in dysfunctional families and have had some sort of trauma in their background. And that's why part of the reason why we're seeing all of the turmoil that we're seeing today politically and the division that we're seeing today. It's what I call feelings in search of solutions, right? Which you really have a lot of emotional instability and maladaptive coping mechanisms. And that's what causes motivates people to turn to, you know, extremism, for example, which is the whole point behind my podcast, which is to try to help people to understand that we're way more complicated than we give ourselves credit for. And a lot of what we're seeing out there, the solutions are not political. They're not, you know, in terms of what we're used to relying on is our democratic norms, you know, debating issues and policy and legislation and elections. And you know, democracy can't. I always say democracy is a roadmap for coexistence, based on principles of mutual respect and fairness, but it can't make up for troubled society. And so that's the biggest problem right now is that we're not really addressing fundamentally what's wrong, what's really causing all of this division. It's really about feelings in search of solutions.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm. And talk to us about this idea of maladaptive coping mechanisms. What is, so we're kind of band-aiding things, right? So can you kind of elaborate on that?

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Mm-hmm. Well, so this really goes back to understanding human nature. So first of all, what people don't realize is that feelings are a survival mechanism, just like pain and hunger. If I touch a hot stove, I'm going to feel pain in my hand. And there's a reason for that. If I didn't, then I would leave my hand there, and I would burn it. If I didn't experience hunger, then I could starve myself to death, right? So we have feelings for the same reason. They are there to help us make good decisions, but we live in a society that doesn't talk about mental health. And so people don't learn how to use their feelings. What we do is we overly rely on cognition, on talking ourselves out of our feelings, over analyzing them, second guessing them, minimizing them, right? When in reality, The way that we're hardwired is, is we're hardwired to have emotions, right? To help us. And so, for example, you know, if I feel anxiety, anxiety means I'm feeling out of control of something. So the first thing that you want to do if you notice that you're feeling anxiety is not to worry, you know, which is anticipating something bad happening or rehashing something. That's cognitive, right? All that's doing is really... It's, you're coping with the symptom. You feel uncomfortable because you feel anxious and then you're trying to cope with that by either anticipating or rehashing. And all you're doing really is making your anxiety worse. So the thing to do instead would be to say, okay, I'm feeling out of control about something. And so where is that coming from? What am I feeling out of control about in my life? and then what's in my control. And so maladaptive coping is about, it's what most people do. They react to feelings rather than being proactive, rather than identifying what they're feeling, where is it coming from and what's in my control. They're not even aware of their feelings. And so what they do is they react to them. you know, they feel anger and then they just react to it. You know, I always say that violence, bigotry, greed, corruption, these are all quote unquote solutions for people that lack emotional insight and adequate coping skills. So, I mean, when it comes to maladaptive coping, I mean, there's any number of things that people do. Sometimes they turn things internally and they... you know, become self-destructive, right? Drugs, you know, suicide, you know, making, you know, getting into dysfunctional relationships, going from crisis to crisis, or they turn it outward, right? And that's where, you know, you get into, you know, things like violence and bigotry and just hurting other people, abuse, various kinds of abuse. And so most people, I mean, I can tell you the vast majority of people, this is what they do.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Now, one of the things that people don't understand about mental health is that it doesn't just apply to this compartmentalized you know, idea of, you know, psychiatric disorders, depression, anxiety, addiction, you know, eating disorders, but it applies on a collective scale. You know, that's what's going on right now is we have this public, you know, mental health crisis. That's, that's what really is happening in this country. Um, so for example, I was on Twitter today, I was watching this, this interview. that somebody was having with a Trump supporter and just expressing some very racist views. And I thought, why are

Sue Dhillon:
Thank

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
we

Sue Dhillon:
you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
asking these kinds of questions when we should be asking them about their own lives? What was your upbringing like? What's going on in your own life that,

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
what needs aren't being met? What in your own life and your relationships and your, in your life as a whole, right? And what are you doing to cope with those? Because that's what this is really about. This is really about people who, number one, are not even, they don't have the insight into their feelings to understand why they are behaving the way that they're behaving. And so I call insight the seed for change. Because once you understand why you're doing something, how it's not serving you and what would serve you better, you're not gonna change. And that's what we do as a society, is we keep trying to argue with people and reason with people. And I always say if information and reason were enough to change minds, then people would never speed on the highway or eat junk food, right? We know those things. are risky, right? And yet we do them anyway. But that's just, again, that's just human nature, right? So,

Sue Dhillon:
Yes.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
you know, that's my life. That's what I do for a living, is I help people to better understand why they behave the way that they behave, why they feel the way that they feel, and to help them to learn other ways of thinking and feeling and behaving, right?

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm. So let me ask you, Elaine, is there some practical guidance you can offer people who might be, you know, hypothetical scenario, something stressful, or they're having anxiety about something that's come up in life? How, what is a really powerful and empowering way to cope with that or begin to process and

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Okay.

Sue Dhillon:
cope?

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Well, you remember I started talking about feelings and that they are a survival mechanism. They're there to help us to cope. So one of the things that I find is, and I think if you talk to other clinicians, they'll tell you the same thing, is that almost everybody is struggling with feelings of inadequacy. That is fear of, I'm sorry, not feeling that they're not good enough, that they're not deserving, they're undeserving, and that there's something inherently wrong with them. Whether they're conscious of it or not, you know, that is there. And then on top of that, you know, we all have three innate fears. Fear of harm to self or others, fear of rejection and fear of failure. Those are innate. So if you, you know, if you already fear rejection and failure, which again is normal, then and you feel inadequate, then what are you going to do? You're gonna overcompensate for that by, this is again where we get into the cognition, then you're gonna overcompensate for that by ruminating. And so what I find is that most people do is they mind read, you know, they're trying to, what is this person thinking about me? You know, they second guess themselves, should I have said that, should I have done that? you know, why did I behave that way? They compare themselves to others. Why can't I be like this person? Why does this person have it so easy and I don't? They anticipate other people's reactions. You know, what is this person gonna think about me or how are they gonna react if I do this? And then they self-criticize. I'm stupid, I'm worthless, I'm, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So they do these five things, right? And again, what I want people to understand is this is a coping mechanism. This is a coping mechanism. It's just a way of adapting to emotions, right? It's not actually the way that you feel or think, it's a coping mechanism for your feelings. Now, add on top of that, the fact that when we're growing up, the role of a parent is to be what we call a mirroring object. And what that means

Sue Dhillon:
Thank

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
is

Sue Dhillon:
you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
that's not role modeling, but what it is is literally mirroring back to that child, their sense of self and self-worth, right? So how you get your sense of self and self-worth is dependent on how your parents react to you, their tone of voice, what they say to you, how they treat you,

Sue Dhillon:
Thank

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
right?

Sue Dhillon:
you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
A simple example would be, you know, let's say a boy falls off his bike and he comes running home to his mom and he says, I fell off my bike and mom says, well, you should be more careful next time. Not earth-shatteringly inappropriate, but compare that to, okay, well, that's okay. I know you're a good bike rider and you're gonna get back on and you're gonna do great. And you think about the different feedback or mirroring that that parent is providing to that child. In the first case, they've done something wrong. They're incompetent. The second one, it's, this is normal, but I know that you're capable. And it also... role models resilience to keep trying to don't give up. And so you multiply this exponentially, right, through a child's life. And this is what most people grow up with is they grow up with either negative mirroring or inconsistent mirroring. And again, this goes back to the fact that because we don't talk about mental health, parents don't learn good parenting skills, right? They don't understand that this is a role that they play. And so what happens is, when people grow out of, you know, they grow into adulthood, they use everybody else's mirrors. Basically, that's what most people do, is they go through life using other people as mirrors, just like they did their parents, right? To get a sense

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
of self and self-worth, right? Sense of who they are, their competence, you know, if they're a likable person, you know, if they're deserving, right? If they're adequate, if they're... you know, there's anything inherently wrong with them and their worth as a person. And so, so you combine this, these things, and that's why I, my podcast is called It's More Complicated Than You Think, because, you know, human beings, this is this complex sort of symbiosis that's going on with most people. And so, if you're relying on your relationship with other people for a sense of self and self-worth, then what are you going to do? You're going to overcompensate. And that's where that ruminating comes in. And again, it's not a conscious thing, but that's why a lot of women are people pleasers, right? Because it's not just about, I care about hurting those person's feelings or disappointing them. It's also about, I need for this person to react to me in a positive way. I need for this relationship to be positive. Otherwise I'm going to feel bad about myself. I know this is where I get my self-worth. So if somebody responds to me in a negative way, then it affects how I feel about myself. So what I teach people is not to use other people as mirrors. Why? Because most people do not manage their feelings adequately. They don't know how to manage their emotions and they don't know how to communicate constructively. So when you're relying on somebody else for a sense of self, what you're doing is you're relying on dysfunctional coping mechanisms, emotional coping, and dysfunctional communication skills, right? So you should never use other people as mirrors. So then people ask me, well, what do I do instead? And I teach them how to self-validate. And people will be like, well, how do I self-validate? I don't know how to do that. And I say, well, you do it for other people all the time. So like when you're talking to other people, especially people you care about, like a child, you would never say to them, so if you want to avoid rejection or failure, here's what you need to do. You need to mind read, you need to second guess yourself, you need to compare yourself to others, you need to anticipate other people's reactions, and you need to self-criticize. You would never say that to somebody else, but that's what we do to ourselves all the time. Why? Because when we're talking to other people, we're talking from a place of values, but when we're talking to ourselves, we're talking from a place of insecurity and fear, right? We think if I'm not hard on myself, well then I'm really gonna screw up. I can't just be myself. I'm not good enough the way that I am. So I have to do these things. Even if you were talking to a friend and they said, you know, Sue, I get what you're saying. I get it, right? But that's other people. You know, I have to be hard on myself. Otherwise I'm definitely gonna, you know, nobody's gonna like me or I'm gonna fail. You wouldn't say, yeah, you're right, you're different. Right? You wouldn't. You would say, no, nope, this is not constructive. Even if I said to you, well, don't you want that person to avoid rejection or failure? You would say, yes, but that's not the way to do it. Right? Bingo.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right? We understand that when we're talking to other people. So, the

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
one of two tech, so what I say to people is, you already know how to self-validate because you do it for other people all the time. So, I teach two techniques. The first one is what I call being your own best friend. And that is basically imagine, you know, the things that you say to yourself, the negative things that you're telling yourself. Imagine saying that to somebody that you care about. And they say, well, I wouldn't do that. Exactly. So then imagine what would you say to them instead? That's what you need to be saying to yourself, right? That's

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
being your own best friend. So anytime you catch yourself talking to yourself negatively, engaging in any kind of inner negative dialogue, being hard on yourself, being a perfectionist, you know, telling yourself that you're stupid or worthless, or you should have done this, or you should have known that, or you know. you're selfish, if you want to set boundaries, whatever it is, right? Imagine saying that to somebody else and then imagine what you would say to them instead. And that's what you need to say to yourself. And again, it's because, you know, that's what works. We tell other people that for a reason, because we understand that that's what is constructive. You know, if you want to avoid rejection or failure, then beating yourself up is not the way to do it. The other technique is when somebody else is making you feel bad about yourself. Okay, so we all know what the golden rule is, right? Treat other people the way you wanna be treated. Well, I have a technique I call the opposite of the golden rule. That is treat other, you have a right to be treated the way you treat other people. So if somebody's making you feel bad about yourself, then they're doing something wrong because there's always a constructive way to give feedback. So anytime somebody's making you feel bad about yourself, ask yourself, If the situation reversed, would I be treating them the way they're treating me? Would I be talking to them the way they're talking to me? And chances are the answer is going to be no. Right? And then ask yourself, how would you be talking to them? How would you be treating them? And so that gives you a perspective about who's the real problem here. Right? It's not you, it's them. Right? Most of the time when... somebody makes us feel bad about ourselves, it's not the feedback per se, it's the way that they're going about it. You know, right?

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
And part of that has to do, if we go back to about feelings and our inability to know how to cope with feelings, is most of the time, we don't talk in terms of feelings. You know, we don't say, you know, Sue, what you just said, that really hurt my feelings. Or, you know, Sue, you know, that is, it's kind of, you know, What you're saying is kind of, you know, it's making me hard. I'm having a hard time concentrating right now. Or, you know, I'm finding that, you know, what you're saying is kind of, you know, frustrating me. Instead, what we say is, God, you're annoying. You know, or God, you're a bitch. Right. Don't be such a bitch. Right. That's

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
even though that's not actually. What's motivating us, what's behind that is an emotion. We don't talk in terms of emotion. And so immediately what the other person is gonna do is they're gonna feel on the defensive, right? And so that's how you get into arguments, right? And so,

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah,

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
yeah. Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
wow. That is all such great practical insight and guidance there. I love everything you've shared and it's just again, so practical and people can begin applying that. So let me ask you now, you know, one of these things that we're touching on here are this idea of being able to convey feelings powerfully, right? This is kind of seems to be the hang up here where Okay, if we're feeling hurt or neglected or whatever we're feeling, and don't, can't access our therapist right away, or go talk to a professional, but you're in this moment where you're feeling, give us some practical guidance there to be able, what's a powerful way to convey that? Get your point across.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right. So I actually, um, I have, um, excuse me, working over the years. I went down the wrong throats. Hold on a

Sue Dhillon:
That's

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
second.

Sue Dhillon:
okay. We can pause for a second. I don't want just

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
We pause.

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah, I'm, yep, you're good. So, okay.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
The water went down the wrong pipe,

Sue Dhillon:
Okay,

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
excuse me. Cough.

Sue Dhillon:
no problem. Okay.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
good. Okay.

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
So working over the years with people, I discovered that there were these patterns of communication. And one day I finally decided to write them down. And what I discovered was that there were 15 of them, which I think is, was really tells you

Sue Dhillon:
Thank

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
a lot

Sue Dhillon:
you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
about how complicated communication really is. Most of these are what I call conceptual. That is that It's about understanding the dynamics, the way people interact with one another and how they, it's mostly what goes on inside, intra-psychically and then also between people. But two of them, there are techniques. And one of them is actually, if you've ever done any kind of couples counseling, you would have heard of this before. It's called, excuse me, iMessaging. And I have my own little twist on iMessaging. So with iMessaging, what you wanna do is you want to focus on something specifically that the person said or did rather than characterizing their behavior. So to use an example before, it's like instead of saying, Sue, you're being really annoying, I would say, Sue, when you,

Sue Dhillon:
You.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
I kept on talking, right? When I said that I was busy, right? In other words, it has to be something objective, right? That's not characterized, but something specifically that we can both agree on, right? And then you say, you use a feeling adjective to say, so when you kept on talking when I asked, when I told you I was busy, I felt frustrated. Okay? Um, the next part of that and a traditional eye messaging would be to say, and when, and then I responded to that by, um, calling you names or storming out of the room or, you know, basically how did I show my frustration? And what I've done is I've done my own little spin on that. So instead of that third part, what I do is I say, you know, when you, um, When you kept talking when I told you I was busy, I felt unheard or I felt like, I felt really frustrated, but I don't wanna make any assumptions. So I'm checking in with you. Is that how you meant to make me feel or is that

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
how you meant to come across or is that how you really feel depending upon what fits in that context? So the key thing there is to say, don't make assumptions, right? Check in with the other person first before you assume the person's intent. Because 99% of the time, the person didn't mean

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
whatever it is that they're making you feel, it was not their intent, right? A lot of times what happens is, is people just, again, they act on their own emotions. Sometimes it's a defense mechanism, or sometimes it's just because of whatever they're feeling, right? And so, but we make assumptions and most of the time those assumptions are wrong. And so by doing that, what we're doing is number one, we're giving that person an opportunity to explain themselves. And so that avoids putting people on the defensive, right? Cause we're giving them that opportunity in advance. We're also not jumping to conclusions which affects our own response, our own feelings, right? Because we're assuming something that may or may not actually be the case. And it also avoids a power struggle because we're not saying something back which will put the other person on the defensive. So that would be... that would be one technique is what I call, not making assumptions, checking in with the other person first. So, for example, I'll use another example. This is actually something that's actually happened. So I had a patient, a couple where, she said, why are you ignoring me? And so he goes, I'm not ignoring you, I was just tired. I was

Sue Dhillon:
Okay.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
just kind of sleepy or whatever, right? So this is what happens all the time. It's what I call perception and intent. where you have a person that has good intentions, right? And then you have another person who knows what they heard or they know how they felt, right? And it's not about right and wrong, it's about perception and intent. Both are valid, right? So the wife had a right to feel ignored by those feelings, even though that wasn't his intent. He may have had good intentions, but she still has a right to feel the way that she feels, right? Because that's the way his behavior made her feel. On the other hand, just because that's how she feels doesn't mean that that was the other person's intentions. So most of the time people have good intentions. And so what happens is, is the other person says, well, I'm gonna explain myself and then you're not gonna be upset with me anymore. And that is not the way human nature works, right? If you try to explain

Sue Dhillon:
I don't

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
yourself,

Sue Dhillon:
know. I don't

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
what the other person is gonna hear is,

Sue Dhillon:
know.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
you're wrong

Sue Dhillon:
I'm

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
for

Sue Dhillon:
here.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
the way that you think and feel. And here's this really good reason why. I wasn't ignoring you, right? And so they think,

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
I wasn't ignoring you, I was just tired. So therefore you shouldn't feel ignored, but it rarely works. And that's why it's important to say, you know, when you didn't answer me when I was talking to you, I felt ignored, but I don't wanna make that assumption. Was that what you meant, how you meant to come across? Right? And even if the person was intentionally ignoring you for whatever reason, It's usually a defense mechanism. It's something they're trying to do to protect themselves. It's not necessarily something they're trying to do to hurt you, right? So

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
that's the first thing. Does that make sense?

Sue Dhillon:
It does, yeah. And I just,

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Okay.

Sue Dhillon:
I love this, Elaine. It's so practical and it's so insightful

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right. That's me. I'm a pragmatist.

Sue Dhillon:
from the other side.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Let me give you the second one. So the second technique is empathic listening. So let's just say for the sake of argument that I don't use my eye messaging, right? And I say to you, you know, why are you ignoring me, Sue? So you can still on your end use empathic listening and you can say, okay, well, I know I wasn't ignoring her. You know, at least that wasn't my intent to ignore her. or it certainly wasn't my intent to hurt her feelings, but I'm gonna use empathic listening. This is a tool. It's not about giving in. It's not about agreeing. It's about what I call being Columbo without the trench coat and the cigar. If you're familiar with the detective Columbo from the 1970s series, it's what I call being Columbo without the trench coat and the cigar. So basically I'm gonna check in with you. I'm gonna say, well, help me to understand. What was I doing? you know, what did I do or say that gave you the impression I was ignoring you? Right. So what you're doing is you're gathering information because again, most of the time what happens is, is we, um, we make assumptions, right? Um, we don't understand really. And, and, and we can't solve a problem if we don't understand it. So it's not about right and wrong again, it's about perception and text. So I need to understand how you're seeing things. you know, get inside your head because once I identify how you heard it, well, then we can problem solve. And the whole point behind communication is not about right and wrong. It's not about winning an argument. It's about achieving or reaching understanding so that we can solve the problem, so that we can move forward.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh, I love that. And you know, one of the things I will say that I find I have experienced and I know others have as well is, versus this empathic listening and kind of digging deeper, gathering info, the response many times might be, I didn't do that. No, I didn't. I didn't ignore you. And it's just this kind of shutting off the other person's feelings, right? You're just saying you didn't. I don't care about your feelings. That's kind of what we get

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right.

Sue Dhillon:
from

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
That's

Sue Dhillon:
that

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
exactly

Sue Dhillon:
response.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
how it comes across. Even though, again, 9.9% of the time out of 10, that's not their intent. They think, oh, I'm gonna explain myself. I know that wasn't my intent to ignore you. So I'm gonna explain myself. But it comes across as I'm dismissing your feelings or you're wrong or no, I don't care about you. When what they're really thinking is, oh, I'm gonna explain myself. And then you're gonna see. Oh, okay, you didn't mean to ignore me. Okay, I feel better now. And that's not what happens. And that's what goes on in our society. That's what we're doing in our society as a whole. And we think, I'm gonna explain myself and then you're gonna feel better. You're not gonna feel that I'm dismissing you or that I'm... undermining you or that I don't care about you or that I don't think you're a bad person or whatever. That's what happens in society. So when I was talking earlier about even on a social level and in terms of what's going on politically and in terms of the social division in our country, it's the same. We keep thinking, I'm going to explain to you, I'm going to reason with you. and you're going to feel, you're gonna change how you feel, but that's because people don't talk in terms of emotion. They feel, they respond in terms of emotion, but then they explain themselves or they speak in terms of rationalizations. And that's how we end up miscommunicating.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow. Oh my God. I'm gleaning so much from this. Elaine, it's this, you know, really kind of driving home this idea of empathy, right? Where it's kind of like, if somebody comes to us with their feelings, you want to really just harrow them out, not respond, be an active listener, and just kind of allow them to share,

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Right.

Sue Dhillon:
which I think people struggle with.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
And more importantly, though, is understand that people are not going to communicate in terms of feelings, so you have to listen for the emotion. Right. Listen for not the content of what they're saying or how they're saying it, but the underlying emotion. And understand, too, that anger is what we call the tip of the iceberg. In other words, it's really a byproduct of other emotions. Right. So when somebody is angry, then what that's telling you is that there are really other emotions underneath of that, you know, hurt, disappointment,

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
helplessness, hopelessness, shame, you know, on and on and on. Right. And so, you know, if somebody is really angry, then that's that there's other feelings underneath that. And understand, too, that where emotions come from in the brain, is from a different part of the brain than where reason and emotional regulation and planning and thinking about consequences and all of that stuff and judgment, right? Good judgment comes from what we call the prefrontal cortex, which is the front of the brain, whereas emotions come from a more primitive part of the brain, which is the limbic system. So emotions are what motivate us. That's what energize us to do, depending on what the emotion is, right? So anger is the most energizing emotion and it's the most impulsive emotion because it has to be. That's when we feel most under threat. That's what we do is we respond with anger. And so if you're trying to reach somebody, if you're trying to have a conversation with somebody, and they're in emotion mode, emotion mind, they're not going to hear you because they're responding from a place of impulse and from emotion. You have to get them out of anger mode, out of emotion mind before you can even have a conversation. And so when we're arguing back and forth with people, all we're doing is fueling that anger and we're not getting anywhere. And so this is again, another reason why, you know, people in my field just look at what's going on and think to ourselves, oh my God, you know, let's talk about self-destructive. And so if you want to get through to somebody, the first thing that you have to do is you have to stay calm, right?

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
And then you have to also, the only way that people are going to, first of all, get out of a motion mind is to be calm. Then secondly, if they're gonna listen to you, they have to trust you. And again, this is just the way that we are wired because evolutionarily, that's what we would do. I mean, we would only work with people that we trusted. That's what we learned is to only take advice or to work with people that we trusted. So if somebody doesn't trust you, then they're not going to listen to you. And that's one of the reasons why we have such polarization and why people are willing to listen to other people, you know, hook line and sinker, you know, as long as they trust them, right? Because that's the way we're wired. So you have to find a way to get that person to trust you. And some of the ways to do that are to try to find common ground. So like if you're problem solving with somebody, you know, find something you can agree on. Like, you know, we can all agree on the fact that nobody wants to see children get shot up in a school, right? We can all agree on that. You know, we can all agree that, you know, nobody wants an unwanted pregnancy, right? And so you have to start with finding things that you can agree on. And whatever the problem is, you know, we all... have people that we care about and we want those people to be safe. And so whatever that is, but the point is that I always try to treat people the way I want them to behave, rather than the way they are behaving the way I want them to behave. So I will find something that... It's like, oh, it's great that you care about mental illness. Let's talk about that. I care about mental illness too. Let's talk about, let's problem solve what we wanna do to address that. And so the second thing is that you wanna try to find something that you can find something that they're doing that you can give them credit for.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
So there was a hearing with this woman who was a diplomat, and she was at a hearing back with her first impeachment hearings. And so there was a Republican congressman who was saying, the Democrats, they're leading this coup. That's why they're having these hearings, because they're trying to lead this Democratic coup. And then this, her name is Dr. Hill, and she said, may I speak? And the Republican tried to shut her down and said, no, no, I already yielded back my time. She cannot

Sue Dhillon:
I'm

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
speak.

Sue Dhillon:
sorry.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
But the chair allowed her to speak. And she said, you know, she said, the reason why I decided to get involved is because I agree I agreed with Donald Trump that we need to improve our relations with Russia. Right. So she found something that everyone could agree on. We all agree that we need to improve relations with Russia. Right. Um, and then, um, you know, and then she was, you know, giving him credit. She goes, you know, that, you know, that they, um, you know, that they want to try to work with Russia and, and, and all of this, you know, and, and I wish that, you know, I wish that your other colleagues hadn't left yet because. I want to be here to help. That's what I'm here for. We all need to work together. I agree with that. And not be, work against each other. So things like that, that's what diplomacy is about. And so you want to do those things and then that's some ways of building trust. And then the other thing is that... You know, somebody is not going to listen to you if they're in a bad mood. So again, we are wired that the only time that we that happiness is the only emotion that triggers memory, memory neurons, right? So if you want somebody to retain information, then they have to be in a good mood otherwise. And this works for like, you know, schools as well. Teachers, teachers, if you want your your students to trust you, to listen to you, to retain the information, you have to think about what I call the relationship stupid. Basically, everything falls down to the essence is a relationship. In fact, in psychology, we know that it doesn't matter what theoretical orientation you're coming from, right? It's the relationship that you build with the patient. is what determines whether the therapy is successful or not. And so, you know, at any level it's about, and again, this is not just psychology, this is biology, this is the way

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
our brains operate.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh my goodness, Elaine, you are just like, so full of wisdom and insights. And you have shared so many amazing things here. Now a couple of things. One, I am just so honored and delighted to have had this time with you. And I think people are going to have so many incredible takeaways here from all of what you've shared. I will be sure to have links to your stuff for people to access. And I would love to circle back and do this again with you, because I feel like we were just scratching the surface here and you're just like, uh, and you know, such a great resource and people need again,

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Thank

Sue Dhillon:
like

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
you.

Sue Dhillon:
you were saying to have this information and these conversations. So thank you.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Thank you,

Sue Dhillon:
And.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Sue.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh, thank you so much. You've really been so incredible. And now in closing, you've already said so many amazing things. But in closing, if there were just one message that you'd like to leave everyone with, what would that closing message your hope for everyone be?

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
Well, I know everybody is on edge and I just wish that we would take more time to, when we're talking to other people, particularly people that we disagree with, to take the time to remember that we're all just, we have a lot more in common than we do differences. Right. And that if we can just get to the essence of the fact that we all have the same basic needs, you know, need for, like you said, belonging, you know, need to feel productive and to feel heard, to feel needed, to feel a sense of you know, connection. I mean, there's just so many things, right, that we all have in common. Our basic needs are all the same, and we just may have different ways of going about it. And not to get caught up in what I call the content, right, of what people are saying, because we all have different ways of trying to meet those needs, but ultimately, a lot of those ways are just, you know, again, we're reacting to emotions. rather than being proactive, rather than again, identifying our feelings, asking ourselves where are those feelings really coming from and what's in our control.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh my goodness, I love it Elaine. You have been so awesome and I just thank you so much.

Elaine S. Belson, LCSW-C:
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.