Blossom Your Awesome

Blossom Your Awesome Podcast Reinforcement With Dr. Avrum Weiss

May 31, 2023 Sue Dhillon Season 1 Episode 141
Blossom Your Awesome
Blossom Your Awesome Podcast Reinforcement With Dr. Avrum Weiss
Show Notes Transcript

Blossom Your Awesome Podcast Reinforcement With Dr. Avrum Weiss

Dr. Avrum Weiss, psychologist, award winning author, teacher and consultant is back with us and we are talking about intimate relationships and the power of reinforcement to validate the feelings of others.

To learn more about Dr. Weiss or take part in his latest research project go to his website here.

To see more of my work check me out here where I cover optimal health and wellness.

Or at the link below -

https://blossomyourawesome.com/mindfulness-1

Where I write and cover mindfulness and other things to help you Blossom Your Awesome.

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Sue Dhillon:
Hi there on the show, Dr. Avram Weiss is back with us. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome back.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
My pleasure. Glad to be back.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh, I'm so excited to have you back and take a deeper dive here with this topic of men, their fears of women, their seven fears that you talk about in the book, Hidden in Plain Sight. And... your insights on this and how we can start unraveling these pieces.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, I'll tell you where I got to today. And we might as well start off by being provocative because the conversation will be enlivened from there. And so it's an analogy that perhaps some people will take offense at, but I worked once with a guy who grew up white and Jewish in Zimbabwe. And he would talk to me about how scared he was his whole childhood, both physically and emotionally, being... member of a minority who was in control of everything but also being realizing in some ways that your privileged status was fragile. And there's a graphic in the book of a male and a female figure on a teeter totter. And the man is, as you would expect, in the one up position and the woman is in the one down position. But if you look carefully, you can see the woman has one foot off of the teeter totter. And you realize that if she that his being on top is completely dependent, she removes that other foot and he comes crashing to the ground. So it's sort of hard for people to understand how can you be privileged and in power and still be scared? But I think anytime you're in a hierarchically superior position, you got stuff to lose.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm hmm. So

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
So,

Sue Dhillon:
now

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you

Sue Dhillon:
are

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
know,

Sue Dhillon:
you saying

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I'm not sure.

Sue Dhillon:
men are privilege?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well, I think we could just start with, you know, women earn 70 cents. I think it's up to 73, somebody told me, 73 cents for doing the same job as every man. So yes, I mean, I think it's, I would, I would be surprised if anyone would argue that point. Men are privileged in so many different ways. You know, they've done these studies where they make up two resumes for a job, you know, John Robert Jones and Mary Jones, who have the exact same. background and qualifications and they send it in and John gets an interview, the fake person, John gets an interview and the fake person, Mary doesn't get an interview. So many, many ways.

Sue Dhillon:
Right. And you know, what's interesting about this is so, you know, men are coming into these relationships with this understanding of privilege, right, from the outside world, yet

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yes.

Sue Dhillon:
bringing all of these fears. So that's that

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Exactly.

Sue Dhillon:
analogy there.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
they don't

Sue Dhillon:
I mean,

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acknowledge

Sue Dhillon:
how

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
they have.

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah, so what, you know, what is the initial kind of realization when someone is in a situation like this, you know, because they don't you don't realize that just right off the bat, like, hey, I'm actually kind of vulnerable here that the script has flipped on me.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's interesting, that's really an interesting question because men recognize it in sort of indirect kinds of ways. Like there's a lot of talk going on now about thinking that men may be more depressed than they look. Depression is diagnosed in women much more often than men, but it may be that men when they're depressed don't look like women when they're depressed. Men, they look more like drinking too much, driving too fast, acting aggressively, being sort of surly and unpleasant. That may be masking depression in men. And so I think fears are the same way. I think if you ask a man, are you afraid of women, they would say preposterous, of course not. But if you say to them, okay, when your friends invite you to go out after work to get a beer and watch the game, what's your first thought? If they're honest, what most of them will say is, I'm worried my wife won't approve. She won't be happy. Meanwhile, she's never once said, don't go out with your friends. She's all in favor of it. But the man without even realizing it is worried about her disapproval. And that's how they could recognize these fears, is those kinds of everyday experiences.

Sue Dhillon:
And then also, I think this aspect, God, there's an echo coming in. I'm wondering,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Can't hear it am I in?

Sue Dhillon:
okay, I am getting an echo feedback here, but I'm wondering, you know, this other aspect of this kind of, what is that term I'm looking for, where the women aren't, you know, they may have that What is that term where you're kind of aggressive? It's such a common term. I don't know why I'm at a loss for words here, but.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I'm not sure when the woman's being aggressive.

Sue Dhillon:
Well, not being forthright, you know, may have a problem with

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Passive

Sue Dhillon:
him going

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aggressive.

Sue Dhillon:
out.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
You think

Sue Dhillon:
Yes.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
about passive

Sue Dhillon:
Thank

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
aggressive?

Sue Dhillon:
you.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
Yes. Right. So this idea of this like lack of communication on both sides, right. Or lack of clear communication that's leading to stuff where the woman might take issue with it, but she's doesn't just come out and tell them you can't go, or I don't want you to go, but it's after the fact where she might. you know, take some other approach that shows

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Right.

Sue Dhillon:
him she wasn't happy about it.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, exactly. And because that's what people who have less overpower do. They take power in those kind of passive way. They take power in the way that's available to them.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
That you know if you read the book or watch the movie to help that's a great example of somebody with no overpower Finding a way to express her power

Sue Dhillon:
You know, what's interesting here is this dynamic that it's kind of going on on

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Thank

Sue Dhillon:
both

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you.

Sue Dhillon:
sides. You know, both people are having these issues and

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely.

Sue Dhillon:
we're just not learning as a, you know, society as a whole, how to address these powerfully.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's really interesting what you're saying. Like, okay, to get out of high school, you have to learn some basic life skills, right? How to get up in the morning, how to show up, how to do what you're told, basic kind of things that you're gonna need in the world. I've never heard of a class in high school on how to talk to somebody. And yet you're probably gonna need that skill at least as much as any of those others. By the way, I've never heard of a class on how to balance a checkbook either. which would be just as important, or how to cook yourself a meal. But this is sort of the basic stuff of life. Most people, many couples don't talk to each other because they really don't know how. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they try a few times and it doesn't go very well. It doesn't result in more understanding or more closeness. So they just kind of start letting things go.

Sue Dhillon:
And this interesting idea of both of them bringing these fairs to the table,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yes.

Sue Dhillon:
and then doing that kind of passive aggressive thing, right? Where I don't think women necessarily understand how much control they do have in relationships,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
right? And how they could powerfully guide somebody to a... kind of a more peaceful space.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely. I mentioned to you and I think we talked about it, you know, I've gotten interested in asking women the question because well, let me back up. The word I hear most often from men when they talk about their relationships is criticized. That is men's number one complaint. The thing they talk about non-stop is they feel criticized. So I started to wonder, like, are they paranoid? Are they imagining that? Like sometimes in a couples therapy session, a guy will say, yeah, right there, see, that was critical. And I'm like, yeah, maybe a little, it was a little critical, it wasn't kind, but I don't have the history. And so I don't know why they're so reactive to that. So I started asking women, what did your mom teach you about men? Both in what she told you, and what she demonstrated to the way she treated your father. I won't put you on the spot, but if you want to answer, you can. And then I'll tell you what other people have said. It's fine

Sue Dhillon:
Well,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
if you know it.

Sue Dhillon:
you know, my personal response is different, but I know we touched on this. So please share with us what other people, most women,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah,

Sue Dhillon:
with that response.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I mean, it's kind of sad, but you know what I'm hearing from most women and it's pretty consistent is their moms taught them to not respect men, to not trust men, and to not rely on men for intimacy. You're going to get that from your friends, not from not from your partner, not from a man.

Sue Dhillon:
Okay, and now, you know, responding to this, and this is so interesting, and I wonder, because I have this conversation all of the time, Dr. Weiss, with various people, you know, experts, such as yourself and other people. We've, you know, talked about relationships and powerful communication with friends, all kinds of people, and people are bringing different perspectives, but. You know, one of the conversation I have with girlfriends and there's no male bashing going on here, but there aren't very many good

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Good

Sue Dhillon:
men

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
man.

Sue Dhillon:
out there, right? And I mean, this is again, not male bashing,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I

Sue Dhillon:
but

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
understand.

Sue Dhillon:
there, I was actually talking to, you know, some male friends about this the other day where, and not trying to say that there's tons of wonderful women. running around out there. But just from a, you know, women's perspective, there aren't a bunch of really great men out there who

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
See,

Sue Dhillon:
have got it all together.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think there are, because I work with them all the time, I work with guys which I'd be happy to have my sister date. They're really outstanding guys. And here's the surprise, what they're saying to me is there aren't very many good women out there. So I think it's a location problem. It's, you know, I believe that there are plenty of good women and plenty of good men. But it's like everything else in the world was so saturated with information, it's hard to really find the nuggets when you're flooded with hundreds of emails a day.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm. See now this conversation can go to a whole different place, but it's kind of, it's almost like, okay, we need to figure out how to put the good men and good women together, right? Cause online dating is, um,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Dead.

Sue Dhillon:
the world

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
has changed, right?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yes.

Sue Dhillon:
And even the expectations and, um, uh, the horror of it, um,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yep.

Sue Dhillon:
it's really, uh, distasteful and disconcerting. You know, people are kind of just. jump

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I know.

Sue Dhillon:
in the gun, I can tell you that's not where the good men are hanging out, right? And they're not hanging out in a bar. And

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I don't

Sue Dhillon:
it'd

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
think

Sue Dhillon:
be

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
so.

Sue Dhillon:
great to meet them in the produce aisle, but that's not happening. Right? So, what are your thoughts?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I'm just starting a new venture, which I'm very excited about. I'm going to be, I don't, I don't have a title yet, but I'm going to be their psychologist expert on men for the Lord. I, what I believe is the largest matchmaking company in America. It's called the matchmaking company. And I went and

Sue Dhillon:
Wow

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
spoke at their annual and went and spoke at the annual conference for matchmakers was a lot of fun. And now I'm gonna start, in fact, I think I'm doing my first interview with them tomorrow and I will be, do a series of interviews with them about relationships, I think primarily from the man's perspective. So maybe that's what'll be the wave of the future, will be matchmakers.

Sue Dhillon:
And, you know, and then so there has to be a psychological

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
component to this. Of course there is in order for these matches to really work. Right. It's, I mean, that, so what is that component? What is the psychological aspect to a really healthy functional relationship?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think that people are trained by the culture. Like if you watch a rom-com and you watch two people who meet and fall in love, they kind of show it as a magical process. You know, everything clicks and we knew from the moment we met and we never had an argument and everything was beautiful. We got married and like, well, I don't know anybody that has that life. And so people often, when I'm working with people who are dating, will say to me like, oh, I don't know, make something. He asked me to pay for half the check. That's it, we're done. I'm like, no, that's irrelevant. I mean, so he did something that upset you, kind of bound to happen. That's not what matters. What matters is what happens next. When you say to him, I didn't like it that you asked me to pay for half of the check on our first date, it's how the conversation goes then that matters. Because a good match is not based on some magical combination of people. It's based on two people who are willing to do the work that it takes to keep a relationship feeling good to both people. No matter how well matched you are, it still works.

Sue Dhillon:
about what if you are a woman, now I've got all these hypothetical scenarios

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
That's fine.

Sue Dhillon:
for you, right? Who just can't stand cheap people. And maybe you had a dad or men in your world who are very chivalrous and pick up the tab and then all of a sudden you go out on a date and he wants you to pick up half the check. I mean, that's insulting

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Okay,

Sue Dhillon:
and

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
but

Sue Dhillon:
might be hard to get over.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
it's not insulting because he didn't know that. So if you have a second date and you'd say, I had a dad and this is really important to me, and he says, no problem, I got it. Now you have somebody who listens and responds, who takes you seriously. And when you say something's important to you, he acts on it. That's a keeper, not a throwback.

Sue Dhillon:
Okay, and now, but here's the deal. Like what if you just, you feel, right? And I'm playing devil's advocate here. What if you feel like, well, he should have known better. I mean, he should have the class and the sophistication to know it's a first date and he should be picking up the tab, again, not me saying this, but I think a lot of women

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
then I understand

Sue Dhillon:
think this way.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
and I'm going to be a little harsh. I would say from his perspective, he dodged a bullet because I would not be interested in being in a relationship with somebody who doesn't think they have to talk to me about what's bothering them that I should know. Because what if he came from a culture in which it was very important to him in the world that he grew up that people pay half? Just because you come from a different culture doesn't mean you're right. and doesn't mean other people should know what you want. You still have to do the basic work of talking about it. Because you're never gonna find the person who's exactly, the only person who's exactly like you is you. So unless you wanna be with you for the rest of your life, you're gonna have to learn how to talk. So, I'm gonna go ahead and start talking. I'm gonna go ahead and start talking.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm, I love, okay, so I love this dialogue we're having, but it's so insightful, it says so much. So I think really kind of what I'm gleaning from this is, you know, we come in with these expectations,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yes.

Sue Dhillon:
but it's almost like you have to come in with no expectations, really. Just kind of coming in hopeful that you're gonna connect with a half decent person.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think going into a first date with as few expectations as possible is a great idea. And when people ask me, should they see somebody a second time? I say, that's the simplest question in the world. Did you have a good time the first time? Yes. Okay. You know, if you go try a new restaurant, how hard is it to decide if you want to go back there? If you like the food, you go back. If you don't like the food, you don't give it a second chance. You don't go back. So

Sue Dhillon:
But

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
if you have a good

Sue Dhillon:
now

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
time,

Sue Dhillon:
is it.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
go ahead.

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah, I'm sorry now. So Dr. Weiss, tell me, I mean, is there something that's off the table? Like is there something that can't be talked about or is it your belief that, I mean, what if it's just something so crazy, you know, that he does

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well,

Sue Dhillon:
or so offensive, cannot

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you're asking

Sue Dhillon:
be

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a

Sue Dhillon:
talked

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therapist,

Sue Dhillon:
about as well?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you're asking a therapist, are there things that can't be talked about? So, you know, my answer is no, that's my job, is talking about things that are hard to talk about. So there are things that couples might be together 10 or 20 years before they talk about. There are things that are really, really

Sue Dhillon:
with C.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
deep inside you and you have a lot of shame about. Actually, I have a friend. We have been friends since 1976. How many years is that? That's almost 50 years. And we talked about Sunday things we have never talked about before. So, you know, good relationships just keep... So yeah, there may be things that are off the table now, but if you plan on knowing somebody for decades, they might be on the table later.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm hmm. So I want to rephrase this question. If you're what about something what where does one draw the line right like it what that's just a personal kind of thing

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely.

Sue Dhillon:
right if somebody's

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Where people get in trouble is they feel like they have to justify their choices. You don't have to justify anything. If you are so, and I think this should be true a lot of people in this country right now, if you are so repulsed by somebody whose political views are different than yours, I mean you can do the work if you want to to be more tolerant, but you're probably not going to and should probably just date people whose views align with yours. By the way, that's. actually most common. It's unusual that people marry across political views.

Sue Dhillon:
And so what is your guidance? Give us like an analogy of something that we wouldn't expect we should overlook or still deserves a second chance, right?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Sure,

Sue Dhillon:
Kind

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I

Sue Dhillon:
of

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can

Sue Dhillon:
give

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give

Sue Dhillon:
us an

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you an

Sue Dhillon:
insight

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embarrassing

Sue Dhillon:
here.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
one. I can give you an embarrassing one for real life.

Sue Dhillon:
Okay.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
On my first date with my wife, I explained to her why we were not well matched and could never be a couple. I'm happy to say I was very wrong. And she was smarter than me. And she said, let's just see each other again. And I liked her, but we had very, very different, we grew up in very different socioeconomic situations. As I said to her in high school, I would have hated you. And it's true, but I love her. She's not who she was in high school. So that's a great example. I had an idea that I thought was no go. And here we are.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow, that's so interesting. Now, do you think, now I'm a playing therapist, do you think there was a part of you because you guys had this kind of, even though there were these differences, there was some level of kind of connection

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely.

Sue Dhillon:
or, right? So.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
And, well, let me add to that. And I'm the kind of person, when I find a prejudice in me, I wanna work on it. I don't wanna just walk around a bigoted prejudice person because that was my prejudice about social class. And I don't like having prejudices. And when I discover one, I try to become more open-minded.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow, this is so interesting. So the evolved, more mature you today would probably say, hey, you know, this is, it may be challenging, but it's different and I would love for us to kind of grow from this or

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah,

Sue Dhillon:
something.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
actually, that's exactly what's happening. We have, my wife and I have made a new friend with somebody who is more of the social class she grew up in. And he and I have had, he has his own ambivalent relationship with that social class. And he and I have had very interesting conversations about our judgments and criticisms about social class. It's a part of our connecting with each other.

Sue Dhillon:
You know, this really, if people were to listen to this, it just makes you want to kind of disarm and really kind of write.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Wouldn't that

Sue Dhillon:
So

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
be-

Sue Dhillon:
what are we? Yeah. I mean, how do we how does one show up in this way and what are they bringing to the table? What, you know, like you said, very few expectations, but.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's all about not where it starts, it's about how it goes. It's not about being alike or different. First of all, I think that's hilarious. When people say, oh, I have to meet somebody who's like me, I'm like, but you're not gay, you're heterosexual. So you're not gonna be, right away, it's not gonna be somebody who's very like you. It's gonna be somebody who, if you're gay, you could meet somebody who's more like you. But if you're heterosexual, that's a problem. You're already attracted across genders. So how does that have anything to do with similarity? If you think of all the couples you know, I bet you can't come up with one where they're both extroverts or both introverts. Almost every couple I know has one introvert, you know, primarily introverted, primarily extroverted. Why? That's not just chance. That's people learning and growing from each other. So in my family, I'm the extrovert, my wife's the introvert. If it was up to me, we'd go out too often, more than I really want to. If it was up to her, we would go out not often enough. In between us, you know, I nudge her to go out a little bit more than she'd like. And she says to me, wouldn't you just like to stay home tonight? And we're both, I'm more introverted than I was before I met her and she's more extroverted. We're both growing.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm. And what, uh, how do you begin to more and more lean into this way of being, right? Where you both grow and evolve together rather than bringing, uh, like

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
You

Sue Dhillon:
head

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
nailed

Sue Dhillon:
on.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
it. You nailed it perfectly. You used exactly the language I would use, which is lean in. So in conflict, you can either pull back and take your ball and go home, or you can lean in and say, I'm having a really hard time with this, or I don't really understand you, I don't see how you could think that, whatever it is. In other words, you are more open, not more closed. You say more about what's going on with you, and... hopefully fewer judgments and kind of taking your ball and going home. It's hanging in there.

Sue Dhillon:
Okay, and then you know, we got off on a little tangent here. We started talking,

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Probably

Sue Dhillon:
which

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
my

Sue Dhillon:
has

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
fault.

Sue Dhillon:
been a great tangent. So

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
and

Sue Dhillon:
getting back to women and what they're told about men.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
So getting help us give us some insight here on this.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's such a setup because... At some point I try to be really clear because it can sound as if I am blaming women for men's fears and I'm absolutely not saying that. I'm saying that men and women are both subject to their own rigid gender expectations. But what is not always clear to people is that that causes as much pain and damage to men as it does to women. They're different expectations but there's just as much of a straitjacket for men. You know, women often say like, I feel like I have to be this and I have to be this and I have to be thin and I have to be able to work and take care, you know, all these expectations. It's the same for men. They're just different expectations. and they're just as damaging.

Sue Dhillon:
And now it seems, so if I'm following you correctly here, which I think I am, it's almost like the burden of fixing certain things, and burden is probably the wrong word, but you know, it's kind of more up to the woman, really, because she is better suited in many ways to be able to resolve some of this conflict. and

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think it can start that way, certainly. I think women are more likely to be more practiced at relationships than men are. Not always, that's not always true, but by and large, when girls play with other girls, they play games about relationships and they practice relationships and they talk about their relationships. So they get kind of good at it. And men... not always, but often play games that are more about competition and aggressions, don't have as much experience in relationships. And so when men and women come together, we're sort of behind. We really don't quite understand. And so we may do something stupid on a first date, which is not a problem. It's only if you don't learn from your mistakes. So we may do something insensitive because I don't know as much about relationships. And I didn't know that would be offensive or that's important to you. or that's a way in which you feel cared about and respected. So if you tell me, I feel cared about and respected when somebody pours my wine for me from the bottle, and the next time we go to dinner, I pour your wine, I heard you. It's not that I started to think that pouring a woman's wine is the right thing to do. No, I heard you say it's important to you. And I listened and I acted. That's a keeper.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm. Wow, so there's a really interesting dichotomy here going on because outwardly, you know, women are the more emotional ones, or more, you know, more expressing emotions and vulnerability, but really, men are the ones that are needing more because they're not getting it, right? They're needing that

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah,

Sue Dhillon:
coddling or care.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
but they are as hungry for it as women are. So I run psychotherapy groups for just men. And those men are as emotionally open with each other as any room full of women would other be. When they feel more comfortable and less sort of on show, they're as interested in being open with each other as women.

Sue Dhillon:
Yeah, I know we touched on this last time as well. Now, can you give us some insight into dealing? Where's the first place one starts with a man who is really closed off and really struggles?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well, if you took Psych 101 in undergraduate, as many people did, you may remember principles of learning theory. A lot of us forgot this. We should have remembered. It would be helpful if we remembered. So learning happens. The best way to teach anybody anything is reinforcement, not punishment. We all seem to forget this when it comes to children, and we think that punishment is the way to get them to behave, but we know that's not true. If you go to dog obedience school, they never, ever, ever tell you to yell at the dog. It's all about treats. It's all about reinforcement. The dog does what you want it to do. You give it treats. The dog is dying to please you, and we'll do it again. And we're not that different. So if you're trying to get someone who is scared to be more open, If you yell at them and criticize them and judge them, I promise you that will not work. If you gently encourage them and show your pleasure each time they are a little bit more open, it will grow and grow and grow.

Sue Dhillon:
You make that sound so easy.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well, I like to say it's easy, not simple.

Sue Dhillon:
Okay.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Or it's simple, not easy. Sorry, I got that backwards. It's simple, not easy. It's not easy. It is simple because we have our own resentments that get in the way of being appreciative of our partners. But if you are partnered and you decide, I'm tired of this distance between us. I really wanna be closer and connect more. If you hold that thought near the center of your mind every day for the next week, I guarantee you'd be closer, but you're not going to do that. So you're going to say, well, I cared about him on Monday. Let's see what he does on Tuesday. Let's see if he, you know, meets me halfway. But if you just decided every day this week, I'm going to be sweet and kind and loving and generous to my partner. There's almost no way you won't be closer at the end of that week.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm, wow. And now,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Thank you.

Sue Dhillon:
can you give us something really practical here to work with for coaxing out the vulnerability, like if someone just really doesn't know how to express that other side?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, I mean, it's

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
what I do all day long. So for me, it feels pretty familiar and comfortable. And there are two things about it. One is that I was just talking, I'll say this because it's not my patient. I heard a therapist talking and they said, I don't work with people who are abusive. And I'm like, yeah, me either. And she said, I don't work with people who are aggressive, abusive, aggressive or angry. I said, wait a minute, you don't work with people who are angry? Everybody's angry. Every, it's a feeling. It's a normal feeling. Every, so you're telling people that, that if they have this one feeling, you don't want to work with them. You're telling them not to feel that feeling. So going back to your question, the more open you are, the more receptive you are, the more people will open up with you. The fewer judgments you have. The fewer criticisms you have, the more open your heart is, the more people will open up with you.

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm,

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
If

Sue Dhillon:
even

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you're, you're seeing,

Sue Dhillon:
someone

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
go

Sue Dhillon:
who's

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
ahead.

Sue Dhillon:
not used to opening

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
They'll

Sue Dhillon:
up.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
open more than they ever have and they'll gradually open more and more. And it works with most human beings. Have you ever had a- do you have pets?

Sue Dhillon:
I've had pets.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Okay, have you ever had a pet that was mistreated before you get it? Got it. Okay,

Sue Dhillon:
No.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
well I did as a kid. And lots of people have, you know, they get pets from the shelter or whatever. And the dog comes in the house the first day and it's like hiding under the couch. And you go to pet it and it shrinks back. But if you just keep loving it and being patient and giving it treats... He'll come out more and more and more because he wants to be loved. Now I'm switching to people. He wants to be loved as much as you want to love him. So you're working on the same team. You're not on opposite teams. You're on the same team. He wants to be more open. He's just that's what the book's about. He's just scared. It's not that he's being a jerk and being withholding and a power play. It's that he's a scared little boy at times.

Sue Dhillon:
And now for you, you know, with these men's groups, these men, what does it take? Because I can imagine that so powerful and so just life altering for

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It is.

Sue Dhillon:
the people in these groups, right? And they're probably totally transformed. I can

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Thank

Sue Dhillon:
only imagine.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
you.

Sue Dhillon:
But what does it take to get them there?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
See, the beauty of a group is that the group socializes. So people, when they come to the group, even the first or two meetings, it's very clear to him that it's a different place. And they can tell right away, I'm in a group full of men, and they are talking openly and vulnerably and talking about emotions. So that it's they become acculturated, not the patriarchal culture that taught them not to feel. They become acculturated to a new culture. in which feelings are encouraged and welcomed. And so it's really the group does the work.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow, that's so amazing. So they can literally, a man who's never expressed vulnerability can walk into this group. And by seeing this, there's the safety factor.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Happens all

Sue Dhillon:
And

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
the

Sue Dhillon:
then

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
time.

Sue Dhillon:
they, you can.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Happens all the

Sue Dhillon:
Wow.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
time, not in a day, but over time. Yes, happens all the time. My men's group, I've been running groups for 50 years, more than 50 years. My men's groups are the only groups I've ever done in which people look each other in the eye and say, I love you. Man to man.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh my God, this is how do we make this spread? How do we? How do we?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's a great question. I think we make it spread by, I remember when coffee houses first became popular and how excited I was because I had, I've always had close male friends and before Starbucks, I'm not pitching Starbucks, coffee houses, if you and a guy friend wanted to go to dinner, the only place to go was a bar and you can't talk on a bar. It's too loud. Coffee houses came or have a meal together. That was the only thing you could do. But it makes men nervous sometimes to have a meal together, you know, like unless it's in a sports bar, they don't want it to seem like a date. But coffee houses came along and it was great. You know, any time of day, it didn't have to be a big deal. Say, oh, I'm going by the local coffee shop around two o'clock. Why don't you stop by and join me? And what do people do at coffee shops? They talk. So I think creating spaces where men feel comfortable talking to other men. So there's a chapter in the book in which I sort of walk people through the process of finding other men to form a support group with so that they have other men to talk to. And I think that is the key. I think is helping men talk to other men is absolutely critical.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm. And now, what is your advice or guidance to women, getting back to that really quick about, you know, these women that come in with these ideas of how to be with men and how to not respect them and this and that, and probably assume that they don't know how to ever be vulnerable?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
They do.

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I mean, it's not true. I mean, you have to, to overcome a prejudice, the first thing you have to do is realize you're wrong. You know, maybe you grew up thinking about people of a certain race this way, or people of a certain sexual orientation. That's what your parents told you, or that's what somebody told you, and that's what your friends said. The first thing you have to figure out is you have to actually meet somebody and see them as a person behind the prejudices and find out you're wrong. that your stereotypes are not true.

Sue Dhillon:
And so what is the guidance there to women for helping their spouse or boyfriend or other men in their lives be more comfortable sharing?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well, this is self-serving, but buy him the book and offer to read it together. What a lot of couples are doing is reading it chapter by chapter, they read a chapter and then they make a time to talk and they read the next chapter and they make a time to talk. And I think the book can really help men communicate to women what they've had a hard time saying. I think women learn so much about men. in reading the book and men learn that they're not some kind of freak. They think that they're unique, that they're the only ones who are like this. And then they read the book and they go, this is me all over this book. These examples are. And of course they are because the examples come from men I worked with. They're not I didn't make them up. They're the real stories of real people.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow. And now, you know, how does this, because this has got to be a critical component to just your overall well-being to be able to express all of the

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely.

Sue Dhillon:
emotions, right? Good, bad, and

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yes.

Sue Dhillon:
ugly. So, what does this do? I mean, that not being able to express vulnerability, not knowing how and never really being open with it for a lifetime. has to kind of trigger some angst and anger under there, right? That's probably.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
And even illness, it actually, we have lots of research that you actually don't live as long. So if you think now about the people in the world that you are closest to. If you just sort of think who those people are, I bet you that each one of those people you have been through some really hard time with, either in their life or your life, but that you got much closer because you went like their grandmother died or they got divorced or whatever, that you went through something really hard together. Is that true?

Sue Dhillon:
Hmm.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Well, that's how it happens. You get closer to people by being more vulnerable and open with them. And so the main cost of not knowing how to do that is feeling incredibly alone and lonely and isolated. as many, many men do. It's a big part of why men die so much sooner than women.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow, you know, that's such a simple kind of metaphor there that you used and we never really think of things like that, right? All the times, men or women, when you go through something difficult, you do feel a little deeper sense of connection there.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Absolutely. And the more times, you know, the more of those, the closer you feel. You know, I was mentioning earlier, my closest friend of, I guess, over 50 years, and I was a kid when I met him. And so was he. And so we have been through all of the major life events. His dear, dear, dear dog died last week. And I was on the phone with him immediately, and offering to get on a plane, because it's one of a series of things that we've gone through together over 50 years.

Sue Dhillon:
Wow. And now, you know, what do you have to say to men out there to kind of help them understand the importance of being soft and vulnerable and expressing that?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, if you say to a man it's really important to be soft and vulnerable, I think he will stop listening to you pretty quickly. It's not, the way I said it is, I start talking to him about his life and it's pretty clear often how unhappy he is and how little attention he's paying to unhappy he is. And my message basically is, you deserve better. You can be, you can have a better life. You don't have to be this unhappy. You can do things in a way that's more attentive. to what you need and want and be a lot happier. So I put it in those kind of positive terms.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm-hmm and then but at what point do we start getting to the heart of their matter like the feelings? You know, how did the how do we get those out?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Again, I think if you sit with somebody with an open heart, they will be more expressive of how they feel. If you are open about how you feel, they will be more expressive about how they feel. to bound open this. Go ahead.

Sue Dhillon:
And that, uh-huh, no, you were saying it's about openness and.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
that openness and receptivity. If you go in. with a genuinely open heart and genuine curiosity. Like, I want to hear this about you because I'm interested, because I'm curious, because I want to know you better. Most people pick up on that.

Sue Dhillon:
And now, you know, all the work you've been doing is really to shed light on kind of the unhealthiness of, you know, some of the stuff and how we can do better. So what is your advice there to men and women, couples or just, you know, people in general? Is there one piece of advice for people to kind of show up more powerfully?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think being close to another human being is the best experience you get being alive. I don't think there's anything that feels as good as being really really close with someone. And so if you don't have much of that in your life, I think you're going through life getting only a fraction of what's available to you. And if you want a fuller, so one thing, for example, that men often feel is there, they often feel like they're not very close with their children. And again, that's a whole richness that's available to them that they may not be accessing much of. And so the message is you can, you can not only be happier, but you can live longer if you take the number. So women live longer than men by, I don't remember what it is, seven or eight years, something like that. Let's say seven. If you take that seven and multiply it by the number of men in the world, so let's say this, whatever, two billion men, times seven. If men lived as long as women, you would save as many years of life as curing cancer. That's how big a problem it is. There's nothing biologically about men that we should die sooner. This is we don't take care of ourselves. We don't go to the doctor and we're lonely and disconnected. And if we worked on those three things, we would save more lives than curing cancer.

Sue Dhillon:
Mm.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
It's just kind of a big deal.

Sue Dhillon:
That is a huge deal. Now, So what is your ultimate hope, Dr. Rice? Like where are you headed next with this work and what's your hope?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Um, I would like for I know this is not a show for therapists, but it's it's a big part of my response You know, i'm doing a lot of workshops around the country for therapists saying to them basically Here are some things that you should know to work more effectively with men that if you your training basically was in models Which were designed for women? And those models don't really know much about men, but if you start to educate yourself about how men are socialized and the kind of gender pressure that men are under, then you see men in a more sympathetic light. And that's true for all of us, is that I think we see a lot of behaviors in men and we pathologize them, rather than understanding that these are regular hurting people who are doing the best they can with the tools they have, and would like to find a way to feel better, just like you and me.

Sue Dhillon:
And unfortunately, I think so many of them don't realize what's actually ailing them, right? Like this overwhelming

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah.

Sue Dhillon:
need to express.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah. Yeah. And like the number of men who are depressed and don't think about it as a depressionist, don't think about it as saying that they could get help for. Absolutely.

Sue Dhillon:
Well, oh my goodness. So Dr. Weiss, what is next for you? Are there more books? I know you're lining up with the matchmaking service. That sounds amazing.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, that I'm going to start this week, I think tomorrow. If there are any women who are listening to your show who are interested in being interviewed, so the book I'm working on is, I think the title might be Stand By Me, What Moms Teach Their Daughters About Men. So if there's anybody who would like to be interviewed, it's going to be a great book. It's going to be a great book. about that who would like to talk about what they learn from their mom, they can email me at my website, which is Avram Weiss phd.com, which may you'll put in the information that goes out. So if you are interested in doing that, you can be a part of that new research. And I'm doing a bunch of podcasts, a bunch of workshops, keep them busy.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh my God, I love it. Well, again, as usual, you have been so awesome and so insightful

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Thank you.

Sue Dhillon:
and it was a really great exchange. I think we, you know, touched on some things that might help people kind of give them a different perspective.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Yeah, thank you. I enjoy talking with you. And I would say, you say, what would I say to men? What I would say is there's a lot more out there than you think there is. And take a look at the book and see if you don't recognize yourself in it and see if you don't see some ways to a better life.

Sue Dhillon:
I was just going to ask you your closing message, but I think that's it, huh?

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I think that was it. It can be better.

Sue Dhillon:
Oh, I love that. That is such a powerful close. Dr. Weiss, you have been so wonderful. Thank you

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
I'm Patrick.

Sue Dhillon:
so much.

I think I have it working with the previous link now:
Enjoy talking with you.

Sue Dhillon:
Thank you.